MyDD :: Cinton more progressive than Obama

Cinton more progressive than Obama

by findthesource, Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:02:03 PM EST

I really hate to start out a diary with a question, but:

Does anyone have any information about a website called www.Progressivepunch.com? The website seems to be a database of progressive votes, with Clinton leading Obama (slightly) in terms of who is more progressive. Is it really possible?

If so, I wish the mainstream media could get a hold of this information. It may help her campaign.

Tags: obama, clinton, progressive (all tags)

Permalink :: 21 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

Um, I don't think anyone is disputing this. Not even Obama supporters. This election isn't being defined by minuscule policy differences between the two, but rather broader issues like process (lobbyist money vs. no lobbyist money) and political tone ('fighter' vs. 'unifier').

by crazymoloch on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:11:56 PM EST

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

Since when is being progressive vs conservative or moderate a "miniscule" difference in policy LOL

All these stats are depending on when they took the study and what votes came up before them to vote on theat determines a strength.

Obama is right next to Jihad Joe LIEberman

42 81.06 75.39 73.25 Baucus, Max D MT

43 80.84 76.02 88.37 Obama, Barack D IL

44 80.15 74.87 76.55 Lieberman, Joseph I. I

and Hillary is

28 90.27 87.37 95.28 Kennedy, Edward M. D MA

29 89.74 86.59 91.11 Clinton, Hillary Rodham D NY

30 89.69 87.30 82.96 Nelson, Bill D FL

But, as above said, it's not a surprise when you look at Hillarys votes. She didn't vote for the energy bill, she voted to cap inerest rates, she voted to strengthen trade policies. NOT Obama, plus everything else.

Her policies for the Presidency are more Progressive on Economics, Global Warming, Jobs, Salary, Jobs Creation, Renewable Energy and Health Care. Many anaylists are saying her advisors are actually more left and Obama's are more Right.

by LindaSFNM on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PP.org counts absences as negatives (2.00 / 1)

Obama missed more votes than Hillary in 2007 because of campaigning (although she also missed a large enough number of votes) and that is probably the main reason he scores lower than her (I will need to take a closer look to confirm) for 2007.

Obama had a (slightly) more progressive score than Hillary during 2005 and 2006 (I used to track them closely).

He does have more progressive scores on LCV in 2005 and 2006 (and only slightly worse in 2007), and identical scores on ADA:

ADA Progressive ratings:

Year Hillary Obama

2005 100 100
2006 95 95

Avg 97.5% 97.5

LCV (environmental ratings):

2005 95 95
2006 71 100

Avg 83% 97.5

Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers

by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (2.00 / 1)

Can we agree that broad range voter ratings are pointless? National Journal rates Obama as the most liberal Senator, while whatever you cited says the opposite.

She didn't vote for the energy bill, she voted to cap inerest rates, she voted to strengthen trade policies. NOT Obama, plus everything else.

You realize how silly this game is, right? She voted for the Iraq war the and Bankruptcy Bill in 2001. BTW, both of them voted to strengthen trade policies (in Peru TA and CAFTA).

Aside from the issue of mandates, their healthcare policies are identical. Clinton does have more progressive economic proposals, but not by leaps and bounds. There's no different on the environment or investment (job creation).

by crazymoloch on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

I see how the ratings are misleading, almost pointless. You are correct that they end up not really telling you who is more liberal. But I think www.progressivepunch.org reveals that there are more similarities than differences between HRC and BHO. I think the majority of BHO voters feel he is exremely left-wing, and yet on several ratings HRC and BHO fall into the same general field - a few points difference. Average BHO voter on the street would not believe me if I told them that.

by findthesource on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I see Hillary as center left, Obama as center- (2.00 / 0)

Except every. single. measure.

EVERY MEASURE - says Obama is most definitely left.

LCV. PLanned Parenthood. ACLU. ADA. You name it - name the issue, there is a not a SINGLE issue where Obama is "center-right".

He's got pristine ratings and pristine voting records -- going all the way back through his IL State Senate days -- on every. single. issue.

Amazing.

Just amazing.

People claim they hate "rhetoric over substance" utterly refuse to acknowledge the substance of Obama's 11 year voting record.

by zonk on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I see Hillary as center left, Obama as center- (none / 0)

This seems to go hand in hand with the fact that most of the anti-obama rhetoric which cites some source (which isn't that many) tends to cite either Hillary's own sites, or Fox Nuts Network.

by mattw on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

Except that the ADA disagrees -- Obama, 97.5 vs Clinton 95.83.

BTW -- for folks interested in more than sound bites and the REAL data.

Here's Senator Clinton's Progressive scorecard.

Here's Obama's scorecard.

The amalgam score is Clinton 91.51 to Obama 89.28.

OBAMA on sub-issues
All issues 89.28 24/100

Aid to Less Advantaged People, at Home & Abroad (17 subcategories) 97.96 14/98

Corporate Subsidies (14 subcategories) 100.00 1/98T

Education, Humanities, & the Arts (3 subcategories) 100.00 1/98T

Environment (15 subcategories) 94.12 17/98

Fair Taxation (6 subcategories) 100.00 1/98T

Family Planning (2 subcategories) 80.00 30/87

Government Checks on Corporate Power (30 subcategories) 96.00 8/98

Health Care (15 subcategories) 95.65 30/98T

Housing (2 subcategories) 100.00 1/87T

Human Rights & Civil Liberties (9 subcategories) 70.59 48/99

Justice for All: Civil and Criminal (7 subcategories) 86.67 29/99

Labor Rights (8 subcategories) 90.91 20/98

Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful (15 subcategories) 89.66 29/99

War & Peace (18 subcategories) 84.85 34/99

Clinton on sub-issues
Aid to Less Advantaged People, at Home & Abroad (17 subcategories) 98.84 10/98

Corporate Subsidies (14 subcategories) 100.00 1/98T

Education, Humanities, & the Arts (3 subcategories) 88.89 33/98T

Environment (15 subcategories) 92.11 21/98

Fair Taxation (6 subcategories) 96.72 16/98

Family Planning (2 subcategories) 87.50 17/87T

Government Checks on Corporate Power (30 subcategories) 96.19 7/98

Health Care (15 subcategories) 98.90 16/98

Housing (2 subcategories) 100.00 1/87T

Human Rights & Civil Liberties (9 subcategories) 87.50 21/99

Justice for All: Civil and Criminal (7 subcategories) 94.74 19/99

Labor Rights (8 subcategories) 91.18 19/98

Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful (15 subcategories) 94.30 19/99

War & Peace (18 subcategories) 85.53 33/99

by zonk on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:19:24 PM EST

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

Progressivepunch is not a reliable source. The authoritative National Jouranl ranks Obama as much much more progressive than Hillary based on life time votings considered in three borad areas: Foreign policy, social issues, and economic issues. In fact they rank Obama as the most liberal person running for president, even ahead of Kucinich. This is why Obama wins the youth vote and the educated vote and the black vote (three progressive demographics)

Hillary's not progressive at all. Anyone who could vote to authorize the use of war against Iraq and vote against the Levin Amendment (diplomacy) is nowhere near progressive on the most imnportant decision of her career. And then you factor in the Clinton administration with welfare reform, NAFTA, the Iraq liberation act, Rwanda, Ricky Ray Rector, black incarceration rates, media monopolies, bombing and sanctions against Iraq, and it becomes very obvious why Michael Moore described Bill Clinton as the best REPUBLICAN president America has ever had.

by greenboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:26:23 PM EST

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

Oh brother, the National Journal is garbage. I say that as an Obama supporter.

by crazymoloch on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

The National Journal is the gold standard when it comes to political rankings. It's a very scholarly source.

by greenboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cinton more progressive than Obama (none / 0)

Michael Moore also says that BHO now has more health insurance industry funding (for his campaign) than HRC.

by findthesource on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On Domestic matters, they're similar (2.00 / 1)

except for an edge for Obama on ethics/lobbying reform. She has a slight edge on healtcare (in my view), but she did botch the healthcare project in 1993/1994.

On foreign policy, however, Clinton was pro-war, like Lieberman and McCain, on Iraq (until she started backtracking in Nov'05, when talk of a potential Gore run and Edwards' Mia Culpa may have pushed her to start waffling between being pro-war and anti-war. Obama hadn't yet entered the fray).

Then, in September of 2007 when her primary polls looked very strong (she was approaching 50% in some polls), she went Lieberman/McCain again, and voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment on Iran.

IOW, she has been not unlike Republicans and neocons on foreign policy, and hence should NOT be trusted on that front.

Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers

by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:27:22 PM EST

Re: On Domestic matters, they're similar (2.00 / 1)

And foreign policy is the most important area. Domestic policies only affect America. Foreign policy affects the whole world. That's why the majority of the world is hoping Obama will win.

by greenboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A distinction without a difference. (none / 0)

Let's face it, neither Clinton nor Obama are going to win any "Progressive of the Year" awards. They're not Kucinich... hell, they're not even Edwards.

And the differences between them are in the fine strokes. They're mostly centrist, perhaps with a slight lean to the left on one issue or another.

But they're what we've got. Neither is my ideal candidate, but either is a damn site better than whacko John McCain.

by PhilFR on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:39:12 PM EST

Re: A distinction without a difference. (none / 0)

Obama did win a Progressive of the Year award. He's considered the most progressive person running for president according to the authoritative National Journal. Even ahead of Kucinich who enthusiastically endorsed him:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archive s/2007/03/obama_more_liberal_than_kucini ch/

And there's a world of difference between Obama and Clinton. Obama opposed the war before it began. Hillary not only voted to authorize the use of war, but even voted against the Levin Amendment, thus allowing (some would say ordering) Bush to ignore the United Nations.

by greenboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A distinction without a difference. (none / 0)

While those are differences, I wouldn't call them a "world of difference." Both have blinked every time Bush came demanding more money to continue Our National Disaster, for instance.

The kind of candidate I'd like to see in office wouldn't have that kind of record. But I've become used to not seeing the kind of candidate I really want succeed on a national level.

by PhilFR on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A distinction without a difference. (none / 0)

By more money to continue Our National Disaster I assume you mean funding the war. I don't have a problem with anyone who voted to fund the war. I have a big problem with the people who voted to authorize it in the first place and voted against the Levin Amendment. But once the war started, once Iraq is in chaos with no government and no security, once troops are on the ground, and so much has been sacrificed, I can't really fault anyone for funding the war in the hopes of trying to salvage some good (i.e. a democratic Iraq) from such a horrible foreign policy blunder.

by greenboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A distinction without a difference. (none / 0)

Well said, PhilFR!!!

by findthesource on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Progressive Punch ratings badly flawed (2.00 / 1)

According to ProgressivePunch, Rahm Emanuel (lifetime score 90.90) is considerably more progressive than Dennis Kucinich (88.56). There are almost 30 reps between the two. Anyone want to defend that?

http://www.progressivepunch.org/members. jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=House &scoreSort=lifetime

by baudelairien on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:39:02 PM EST

Re: Progressive Punch ratings badly flawed (none / 0)

Wow, that's about as damning as it gets.

by mattw on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.